Alternate history: Bluesky never happens. Instead, some company opens up a Mastodon instance as a Twitter replacement. So instead of Bluesky with 12M+ users, there’s a Mastodon instance with 12M+ users. Now what?
Yeah, but bluesky has users.
I’m pretty happy with engagement in the Fediverse.
Exactly.
Communities are not higher quality with a million people. Small communities where you can know who the other posters are are a much better experience.
If there are other posters…
Me too I love the hate bots.
So does Reddit but you presumably see some value in federated platforms yea?
So does Twitter.
I’m always shocked by the number of of BlueSky fans that show up on Lemmy. If they don’t care about centralization why are they here and not on Reddit?
Most likely because they care less about the idea of federated platforms and more about “not Reddit” and “not Twitter.” I’m one of those users personally (not that I don’t care about the idea, it’s good to have a return of what is effectively 3rd places of the internet). Most of them, like me, probably came here during the Reddit migration and moved to BlueSky when that took off in popularity.
If I didn’t dislike the Twitter format as much, I’d probably spend more time on BlueSky than forgetting about it until one of these threads appears, and I’d probably be on Tumblr still if I didn’t only use social media from my phone and Tumblr didn’t have such a horrible app.
People are going to go where the people are, for better or worse, until something pisses them off enough to go somewhere else. I originally created a Twitter account to follow a bunch of artists I followed who left Tumblr during the porn ban. I didn’t care for the platform (I hate the tweet format) but that was where all the artists went so I followed. Similarly, when the 3rd party api fiasco hit Reddit, I left and immediately went looking for where the people from the subs I read by “newest posts first” went - except the communities fractured and disappeared. It was the possibility of them reforming here that made me go through a GitHub to figure out how to make an account (spoiler: they never really did reform). I had no idea what a federated platform was supposed to be or do.
The fact that Lemmy is so niche is its biggest advantage and its biggest curse. You either love how small it is, like Reddit back in the day, or you suffer the lack of population for the things that you’re into, and the very nature of the federated platform makes it that much harder to centralize enough people in one niche to form a community (there we go again - centralization). Lemmy is the Wild West frontier town to the big social media giants’ company towns.
Because they’ve been told it’s federated and don’t understand that it really isn’t. My bluesky profile reads “Created a profile until you all figure out Bluesky is another Twitter.”
All I use it for is to read post from people not on mastodon and to reshare my bridged posts from mastodon.
That’s funny and makes me with I didn’t delete my reddit account
ok, but, does ActivityPub have portable identity and/or content addressability yet, so that when some of those servers (which are often hobbyist-run and/or tenuously funded) inevitably cease operating their users can continue on a different server? 👀
It’s a rhetorical question, and the answer is no.
otoh, atproto’s PLC DID method is also not really decentralized… but at least the rest of their system is actually substantially more decentralized architecturally than AP is.
To anyone interested in reading a very informative in-depth discussion of this topic, I recommend the blog post How decentralized is Bluesky really? by ActivityPub co-author Christine Lemmer-Webber (followed by this and this).
portable identity
So like when bluesky starts having to pay back their investors I can portable my identity to… one of the other blueskies out there?
… but at least the rest of their system is actually substantially more decentralized architecturally than AP is.
In the blog post you linked, neither the author or myself came to your conclusion:
However, I stand by my assertions that Bluesky is not meaningfully decentralized and that it is certainly not federated according to any technical definition of federation we have had in a decentralized social network context previously. To claim that Bluesky is decentralized or federated in its current form moves the goalposts of both of those terms, which I find unacceptable.
The blog post also says this:
There is one other thing which Bluesky gets right, and which the present-day fediverse does not. This is that Bluesky uses content-addressed content, so that content can survive if a node goes down. In this way (well, also allegedly with identity, but I will critique that part because it has several problems), Bluesky achieves its “credible exit” (Bluesky’s own term, by the way) in that the main node or individual hosts could go down, posts can continue to be referenced. This is possible to also do on the fediverse, but is not done presently; today, a fediverse user has to worry a lot about a node going down. indeed I intentionally fought for and left open the possibility within ActivityPub of adding content-addressed posts, and several years ago I wrote a demo of how to combine content addressing with ActivityPub. But nonetheless, even though such a thing is spec-compatible with ActivityPub, content-addressing is not done today on ActivityPub, and is done on Bluesky.
My comment should have been clearer; what I meant when i said it is more “decentralized architecturally” I was referring to the data model part of the architecture as opposed to the physical server infrastructure currently operating it. The latter is obviously quite centralized still, but the former is designed for resilience against nodes unexpectedly (and permanently) failing.
Okay yes this makes sense. Although, honestly i think I’d prefer the AP method of doing it because BlueSky sends ALL content to all nodes, so it’s MUCH less cost effective to join with a private server.
I run my own lemmy instance, so i know the data volume since 2023 has been probably like a terabyte or so. But, with BlueSky I’d have to account for the data volume of all users on the platform as a whole, bringing the data volume way up to tens of terabytes (a guess based almost entirely on nothing).
So it really boils down to yes I agree that AP has problems with data accessibility, but I’d prefer that over unnecessary data redundancy
with BlueSky I’d have to account for the data volume of all users on the platform as a whole, bringing the data volume way up to tens of terabytes
I think this is a common misconception based on some critics’ incorrect assumptions and back-of-the-envelope math. See the atproto overview for the different components involved, and then this post (from a BlueSky employee) “A Full-Network Relay for $34 a Month” for some numbers.
If I understand correctly, to run a “full nework relay” does mean to consume all of the text posts from all known servers, but not necessarily all of the media, and not necessarily to keep data you aren’t interested in for any long period of time.
Also, you can run your own PDS and/or App Views without running your own relay at all. And, you can also use multiple other people’s relays.
Disclaimer: I’m not an atproto expert, and I haven’t set any of this up myself.
For those who enjoy in-depth write-ups, Christine Webber has looked at how decentralized BlueSky is really, before: https://social.coop/@cwebber/113527462572885698
It is my understanding Bluesky outright is not decentralized. It may have an API that allows satellite instances but if the main official instance goes down the platform dies.
Mastodon, Lemmy and their siblings are decentralized in that no one instance is sacred. If sh.ijust.works were to go offline right now, the rest of Lemmy would keep right on trucking. Hell, all of “Lemmy” could die and Mastodon and Peertube et al would keep right on trucking.
So why does everyone keep referring to Bluesky as decentralized or even comparable to the fediverse
Bluesky is the newest iteration of privately owned and controlled social media
Because Bluesky claims that they want to develop their relay tech into a standard like HTTPS or something, and then hand it off to a nonprofit to maintain so that it’s usable by everyone. The tech has the possibility to be decentralized/federated baked into it, but whether or not it will be anything other than a pipe dream/marketing hype has yet to really be seen.
They present themselves as basically a Lemmy.world equivalent to those who care about decentralization, which is not a significant portion of their user base. For most people it’s just a buzzword, I believe.
Wasn’t there a similar promise made by Reddit at some point? I remember people referring it to often until it became just some myth … and then at one point, people just realized it was never going to change and then it became a full blown private corporation that wanted an IPO and became a monolith that never even considered sharing anything.
I honestly have no idea, that would be going much farther back in Reddit’s history than I was on the platform for. It reminds me of Google’s “Don’t Be Evil” motto, though. It’s true until somebody realizes that there’s a lot of money to be made doing the thing that you said you wouldn’t do.
It’s where the useful idiots are being herded. They are using it because it’s “not twitter” and other people are influencing them. They don’t care about decentralization.
Would have been nice if they went to Mastodon, but I wouldn’t call them idiots. I don’t use that media format, but if there isn’t a lot of users there, I cant see the service being that useful to the users who do go there. It’s like Lemmy struggles with niches. Not enough people, want to find something or ask someone about something, you’ll hit a wall and find yourself looking for results elsewhere. Someday hopefully, but that movement from Twitter would have been a great time for activity pub to shine if it hadn’t gotten skipped over
Why should they care about decentralization anyway? Isn’t number of users and ease of content discovery far more important?
Yup. I don’t think the average user is even aware of the debate over decentralization. All they wanted was a new twitter, and Bsky was the closest. That’s it.
So why does everyone keep referring to Bluesky as decentralized or even comparable to the fediverse
Parrot the marketing hyperbole.
The enshitification continies.
Because silicon valley thinks it can define reality however it wants and keep telling us not to believe our lying eyes.
Weirdly this seems to work better on techy people who don’t like thinking about politics but understand the technical details of this extremely well than it does on normie progressives because progressives just see the obvious predatory reality and don’t get distracted in minutiae connected to very obviously empty promises.
The tech press does not ever talk to progressives though…
this seems to work better on techy people who don’t like thinking about politics but understand the technical details
Not weird at all; this was the case with cryptocurrency too. Otherwise qualified and intelligent people would invest in centralized scam coins because they had no understanding of economics, just tech.
It’s sad but cool that it works the same way with social capital.
Intelligence and expertise is worth pursuing for the benefit that comes from learning for the sake of learning, but it is true that there is a danger to knowing more and more about a very narrow subject in that it becomes more and more seductive to believe that the thing you are an expert in is a key to understanding everything else and that this gives you a righteous vantage to look down upon the genius of others and judge from afar.
Some of the smartest people there has ever been or likely will ever be throughout history have time and time again completely undermined their potential by falling prey to this delusional drug of a belief.
Does it? None of my normie progressive friends are on the fediverse. The ones that tried it didn’t like it.
calling people normies tends to do that
The tech press is talking to your normie friends?
No I’m saying the logic and propaganda of corporate social media seems to work on them, despite it being in obvious contrast to their ideals.
I’m with you. To my knowledge all my irl woke friends ride only mainstream social media.
I had a local anarchist reach out to me on my ancient FB Messenger of all things.
I get that it’s not the most important part if you’re doing prefiguration, but as far as I can tell most people just want to be where most people are, even if it is supporting actually vile corporations.
Unfortunately not understanding or being sufficiently motivated by the threat of corporate social media is still prevalent among a good amount of lefties I know, but I find even when they are uninterested in leaving corporate social media they can at least understand the logic behind it in a way a lot of techy type people start to just get combatitive when you try to explain.
Most often when I have a conversation about this with someone who is very technically well versed with computers and the types of systems that are relevant to federated social media their response is to answer every one of my broader ethical questions by changing the topic to a conversation about technical details and they either utterly miss the point or outright refuse to have a discussion about it because they think I am being too cynical.
Ultimately these people only have one real argument which is to just repeat the mantra “stop being so negative, lets just wait and see before we jump to conclusions” endlessly about the same cycle of bullshit repeating over and over again.
They didn’t mean those kind of progressives. Not the political one. But the ones that actually see beyond VC backed big tech.
I’m not sure I see the distinction you’re making here. Usually those groups are highly overlapping.
🤷
So why does everyone keep referring to Bluesky as decentralized or even comparable to the fediverse
They call it marketing, I call it propaganda.
“It’s the same picture.”
Always has been. The only difference is what they’re selling.
I feel like this speaks to an unchallenged myth in our society. That corporate organizations and government organizations are somehow completely categorically different from one another such that they exist in totally separate spheres of reality. But they’re both political groups of people, exercising power over the peasants. It’s not as different as people think. And they often have similar goals and use similar strategies, like propaganda, to achieve them.
Because, despite being wildly impractical, it’s technically built on tech that COULD be decentralized. Only recent a new host launched called Black sky. So it is no longer just one host. But it’s been one host for so long it almost doesn’t matter because so few people will switch.
Technically, yes, if you squint; but, practically, no. It was designed with a prioritization of passing the information/data around to avoid any lack of missing anything (so you get a closer experience to the connectedness of Twitter than Mastodon) which means every instance hosts, basically, the entire world. Naturally, there’s only going to be a few entities that can store and afford to store the entirety of the data of the network. There’s no such thing as a small instance, in their protocol.
Because, despite being wildly impractical, it’s technically built on tech that COULD be decentralized.
Yes exactly, it reminds me of the logic of cryptocurrency boosters. I just found out that the bluesky CEO (not to mention jack dorsey) are both crypto advocates so it makes a lot more sense now.
Doesn’t BS have things in it’s software that are hard coded to the main server, so it’s not possible to make a completely independent host at the moment?
The PLC registry is the only such thing, and also it’s not a blocker because you can use the DID:Web scheme to manage your own account identity
They continue to control 100% of the relays so they can control what servers are connected to the others.
Blacksky runs their own relay
https://whtwnd.com/bnewbold.net/3lo7a2a4qxg2l
A Full-Network Relay for $34 a Month
I don’t understand it at all. Where are all the supposed blueskys? It’s so easy to fact check.
Because it is decentalised, and beats the fediverse in many aspects.
It’s not:
In July 2024, running a Relay on ATProto already required 1 terabyte of storage. But more alarmingly, just a four months later in November 2024, running a relay now requires approximately 5 terabytes of storage. That is a nearly 5x increase in just four months, and my guess is that by next month, we’ll see that doubled to at least ten terabytes due to the massive switchover to Bluesky which has happened post-election. As Bluesky grows in popularity, so does the rate of growth of the expected resources to host a meaningfully participating node.
They fixed the large cache needed to validate all traffic on your own relay. Now the cost is mostly bandwidth and whatever CPU power you want to spend on indexing
Hey, that’s a blog post from months ago. It no longer applies, hosting a relay can be done for $34 a month now.
Any more info on this?
https://whtwnd.com/bnewbold.net/3lo7a2a4qxg2l
Check atproto.africa, app.wafrn.net, zeppelin.social and altq.net
Ty!
Because people who are Bluesky fanatics tend to be tech illiterate and are easily swayed by vibes and marketing.
Im trying to get more content on a few hobby communities on lemmy. I’m not really a big poster. I love to comment. But I’m willing to go through and start trying to build some momentum.
Awesome!
There are a lot of cool features from at protocol that activity pub should steal. The way users can pick their algorithm is game changing
The tradeoffs Bluesky made to achieve that means that Bluesky doesn’t have private posts. In fact, Bluesky doesn’t have private blocks.
I do enjoy how that couch fucking fascist cunt is the most blocked person.
Private posts is planned, but it’s not trivial. Mastodon can’t exactly brag about their nonintuitive technically just not broadcasted posts, where multiple implementations keep making private messages publicly discoverable due to bugs.
Wouldn’t that work more with a client or a server software than the protocol itself? The protocol shares the posts. It’s the client and the server which chooses what the user sees.
It’s doable on Mastodon but significantly more complicated.
You need crawlers to index posts across the Fediverse (and avoid getting them blocked), personalized recommendation models per user, and you need pre-emptive caching on the user’s instance for anything recommended (ideally the crawler would make a cache on behalf of each of the opted-in users’ instances, but without content addressing this is a security risk). You also need to poll for edits / deletions.
Doesn’t Mastodon already receive the posts?
On Mastodon, your instance doesn’t receive posts until somebody on your instance interacts with the account posting it (following the poster, browsing directly to the post, etc).
Feeds with recommendations requires fetching stuff in advance to not be slow and janky. Basically the feed service would need a bot account on your instance and retrieving all popular posts, given the current architecture. Having thousands of these bots across every instance do this would cause a significant performance hit on smaller Mastodon instances when one of their users posts something popular. So you need something different, like a server plugin where the bot fetches the content once and tells all participating Mastodon servers about their cached copy, so they don’t all have to hit the hosting instance. But that’s a security risk with the Mastodon design.
Idk the wizardry required to make it work its just something i think would be cool
It’s possible I’d say. The fediverse is very cool in how much choice it gives you without limiting who you interact with too much (except lemmy where you cannot follow users)
i’m so tired of these posts. okay, fediverse, you won! you are more decentralized than bluesky. maybe it’s time to create real useful and interesting content instead of reveling in your elitism?
I mean I agree… it’s kind of the constant crux isn’t it?
The IT nerds pick a protocol that’s uncontrolled, you need to select options and servers, because… well obviously that’s kind of the definition of uncontrolled.
Some big name with big VC backing makes a big platform, makes it simple as possible, no choices, no control but good defaults. Average joes all flock there, build huge communities, users happy. Obviously the bulk of the creative types, celebrities etc… that most people care about flock there.
Big corp or VCs start demanding more monetization, or political censorship, or whatever kind of enshittification they inevitably always will. Users complain, but it all continues to amplify… open communities announce “hey we’ve got our alternative here”, they say “thanks but nah that’s too complicated, and you don’t have the users that I want to see anyway”. People complain more… and either adapt and accept the enshitification as normal… or maybe another big VC backed individual or other corp opens an alternative and pulls off the impossible critical mass goal, and process repeats.
I don’t really know the solution, just know the pattern. Bluesky is IMO the new twitter… fundimentally I don’t see it as super different than the old twitter. Only way I really see everything working is if say… a corporate backed giant actually played nicely and allowed interoperability with a federated protocol that’s actually… well hostable.
It’s basically like exactly what happens out in the real world… walmart comes offers better convenience and lower prices than local competitors… local economy adapts to walmart, individual stores shut down… half of owners, etc… forced to working for walmart for garbage pay.
I think the difference is that while other services boom and bust, the fediverse keeps growing slowly because it is decentralized, and can’t be enshittified in the same way.
It is not as easy or attractive as Bluesky right now, but it keeps growing slowly and getting more kinds of people.
Maybe it won’t be the network of choice for journalists, metal celebrities, etc, like twitter and bluesky, but it already is making its way as something more like old school tumblr – some people like it, some don’t.
yeah it matches that old school tumblr vibe, i like it
But…I came here just for the gloating fediverse content.
What else could there be?
It would be fair to say something like that if you yourself made content but your last post was 3 months ago lol
first, no, it’s fair to say regardless of how often i create content. posts like this is cancer, which adds nothing to the platform. second, even on this account my last post was 1 month ago.
It’s information. YOU are the one deciding to make this a competition.
25% is too high, but at least it’s not as embarrassing as 99%
True
Wait, there are 1600 BlueSky instances to join? Are they counting people using a custom domain name as an entire instance?
I suppose PDS instances are included: https://github.com/bluesky-social/pds
OK so it sounds like there is still just the single BlueSky that is “federated” with a handful of single-user BlueSkies?
Yes. The relevant metric:
99.55% of posts are on a single instance. That is not “federated” in any meaningful sense.
I’m moreso curious if it federated in a literal sense. Is it even possible to participate without using bsky.app’s servers?
Self-hosting a Bluesky PDS means running your own Personal Data Server that is capable of federating with the wider Bluesky social network.
A PDS still requires BlueSky’s servers
No it doesn’t. If other people on bluesky servers want to see your content then obviously it will go through bluesky servers, but if you connect to a 3rd party relay and use a separate appview like zeppelin.social and use DID:Web for account ID then nothing involving the bluesky servers was used and it still behaves like native
Oh, I misunderstood. So you mean federating with their network from other software implementing the AT Protocol? From skimming the docs it looks like it should be possible as long as you implement the correct schemas, but I didn’t dive very deep.
Yes, very recently Black Sky launched. Much too late to make any difference.
PDSes only store user data. These are full instances that can be used to browse the network. The idea is to make your account really yours. Bluesky is hosting most of them. But there are some people who do it on their own.
But bluesky controls much more important components in the network, namely the Relay and AppView.
If Bluesky decides to cut off your PDS you are pretty much alone.
Bluesky is pretty much a centralized platform like Twittler.
Zeppelin.social is 3rd party appview and you can host your own
https://whtwnd.com/bnewbold.net/3lo7a2a4qxg2l
A Full-Network Relay for $34 a Month
Add using DID:Web and you’re now fully self hosted
If your idea of a federated Twitter is a bunch of mini-Twitters that sometimes exchange indirect replies or something, then the Fediverse fulfills that purpose completely. Mission accomplished, we can all go home now.
If your idea is that the replies to every post look the same to any user, anywhere, at any time, even the thing Mastodon merged half a year ago that supposedly fetches all replies if you remember to navigate to the topmost post, and wait up to 15 minutes for your view of the thread to coalesce, falls short.
And this is why hosting Mastodon is cheap, it fundamentally cannot provide the functionality BlueSky offers. Of course, you might think that such functionality is not desirable anyway, and that’s entirely fair. But if you’re looking for the immediacy that centralized Twitter gave users, I don’t see a way for Fedi to ever provide that, whereas there is a path to BlueSky decentralization. It’s a fact that your UX is diminished if all of your followers and followeds are not on the same instance.
But in the end, I think there is space for both.
If your idea is that the replies to every post look the same to any user, anywhere, at any time
This is only true of Bluesky because everyone is using Bluesky’s infrastructure at the moment. If Bluesky ever deindexes someone and they start posting to an alternative relay, you suddenly don’t have a guarantee of a full view of a post’s replies.
Content addressing means you can make your instance pull from both their relay and the bluesky relay and trivially merge threads and views without consistency issues, so that’s solvable.
The bigger issue is all those other regular users who doesn’t, and still get confused (unless they manage to pick a client app that does it for them)
I mean, this would become less trivial the more replays go into use, where to get a full view you’d have to pull from all the relays that exist.
ActivityPub’s solution to this is just IMO better, the original post has a replies collection attached to it that acts as the authority the replies the post has. This also allows creators to eject replies from the collection. There are issues with the way fedi software currently handles fetching from these reply collections, but the missing replies thing is very solvable in ActivityPub.
Doing it this way is why small instances gets hammered when a user’s post goes viral.
And as for moderation bluesky also carries information with the top post from the post author and allows hiding replies too, etc. This gets enforced on the appview side, so the posting user’s PDS is unscathed if it goes viral.
Bluesky is built to assume a handful of big relay (remember that a relay can merge in contents of another) and a bunch of appview and a ton of PDS servers, feed generators, moderation labelers, etc.
Realistically, the relay network will likely end up voluntarily adopting a tree topology - hobbyist communities would run small relays bundling all activity from members’ PDS servers, then a larger relay in front gathers everything from a ton of smaller relays and makes it available to appviews
Doing it this way is why small instances gets hammered when a user’s post goes viral.
Setting up caching in the reverse proxy layer would alleviate this a lot of this. Like, GoToSocial only recommends to set up caching for the key and webfinger endpoints, where having it set up to cache posts and profiles for like 60 seconds (or however long the
Cache-Controlheader says, Mastodon defaults to 180s) would alleviate the strain on the server so much.There are other thing you can do, like this post explains some other things for Misskey, but the defaults should be sensible so you don’t have to be a sysadmin expert to host an instance and they’re currently not. I host 2 Lemmy instances (ukfli.uk and sappho.social) from a £5/month VPS and they’re able to handle bursts of hundreds of requests without issue.
Bluesky is built to assume a handful of big relay (remember that a relay can merge in contents of another) and a bunch of appview and a ton of PDS servers, feed generators, moderation labelers, etc.
People are already building small, non-archival relays so this assumption seems mute. It’s also important to remember that relays are an optimisation, not a core part of the protocol.
Anyone have the numbers for Lemmy specifically?
Lemmy has about 40,000 monthly active users. Lemmy.world accounts for about 15,500 of that. That’s about 40%.
Thanks. Yeah .world is definitely a bit too big, but it’s still miles better than bluesky.
On the one hand one instance having so many users is not ideal. If the mods/admins there go wild you can simply move, and organically the communities hosted there would appear elsewhere.
So in real terms any action they hypothetically could take can realistically be countered.
I think it gives them a little bit too much power in negotiating with other instances, especially with the number of communities hosted here. Choosing to stop interacting with them is a very drastic action because much of the threadiverse is here. Especially for me who has already cut out .ml which also has a disproportionate number of communities due to its age.
I’ve personally started creating my new communities on other instances to spread it out more. You create an alt on a fitting and reliable instance, create it there and then give control to your main account. My latest community is on mander.xyz.
For sure entirely defederating would be hard right now. But you’re could selectively block communities on your own instance. As I say if they did do something so heinous others would pick up the communities and it would be easier.
True
WHEN YOU SEE IT
Not sure which IT I’m supposed to see…
It’s a double reference to osu player Cookiezi’s two plays on Blue Zenith’s [FOUR DIMENSIONS] difficulty using HR and HDHR respectively getting 727pp in both plays with a miss right around the end, and Aireu’s reaction after getting a 727pp play
Which server is representing 25% of the index on the Fediverse?
This site currently measures the concentration of user data for active users: in the Fediverse, this data is on servers (also known as instances); in the Atmosphere, it is on the PDSes that host users’ data repos. All PDSes run by the company Bluesky Social PBC are aggregated in this dataset, since they are under the control of a single entity. Similarly, mastodon.social and mastodon.online are combined as they are run by the same company.
I guess mastodon.social
Lemmy.world
I believe Lemmy is quite smaller than Mastodon (hence it is not even mentioned on the diagram), so it’s probably a Mastodon instance.
